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quinara...about erotica memes and associated stuff.
Why the fuck does everyone have to care this much about sex? Where's the meme about one's favoured narrative dynamics around death/killing, or something equally political? Fucking surprise me, world, and then we can talk.
Sometimes I think this is why I'm such a fan of Foucault and poststructuralism, no matter how behind the times it proves me, because I hate the idea that what I write and how I act has to somehow prove something of what I am. Because, funnily enough, when there's no discourse to describe what you are, you're left communicating via other people's bullshit. Which is all about sex.
I'll stop embarrassing us all now; sorry about that. But one day I'll manage to write a sex scene without thinking it must say something about me more than a scene about fighting dragons, and that's what I'm looking forward to. Roll on, sweet future and its dreams.
Why the fuck does everyone have to care this much about sex? Where's the meme about one's favoured narrative dynamics around death/killing, or something equally political? Fucking surprise me, world, and then we can talk.
Sometimes I think this is why I'm such a fan of Foucault and poststructuralism, no matter how behind the times it proves me, because I hate the idea that what I write and how I act has to somehow prove something of what I am. Because, funnily enough, when there's no discourse to describe what you are, you're left communicating via other people's bullshit. Which is all about sex.
I'll stop embarrassing us all now; sorry about that. But one day I'll manage to write a sex scene without thinking it must say something about me more than a scene about fighting dragons, and that's what I'm looking forward to. Roll on, sweet future and its dreams.
(no subject)
Date: 23/02/2011 01:54 (UTC)Hahaha. Now I am trying to come up with this thing. O author: describe your preferred route to doom and/or woobification: to be ravished a hundred times by pirates, to have one buttock cut off, to run the gauntlet among the Bulgarians, to be whipped and hanged at an auto-da-fe, to be dissected, to be chained to an oar in a galley....
What cheeses me off isn't sex in my narrative, but sex as if it's the only way for a relationship to be intense. There are so many different kinds of relationships in the world! But fandom on the whole has a pretty pathetic little toolbox for writing most of them. I'm reading short stories by Ursula K. Le Guin right now, and god, what revelations she has. I think it's a good idea for fanfic writers to read original short fiction now and then, as a reminder of what the genre's really capable of.
(no subject)
Date: 23/02/2011 11:50 (UTC)See, that's an interesting question! ;D I think I would, alas, have to go with something trite like social isolation + an intellectual dilemma between a rock and a hard place. Gets me every time. (O HAI WESLEY AND HAMLET! And what Draco could have been... Possibly there was a touch of that with Buffy in Empty Places as well.)
I tend to find it quite hard to get on with original short fiction, unless all that stuff in dead languages counts (maybe I'm counting it...), I think because I have a hard time getting to know characters quickly, so a short stories can easily read hollow. But totally agreed with the interesting relationships out there beyond sexual ones. (Alas, though, they are affected as a corollary to my problem - because I find relationships/characters more interesting the more I read about them, usually, and so with sexual relationships more prevalent generally, the more interested I find myself in them.)
(no subject)
Date: 23/02/2011 23:38 (UTC)It is interesting! Social isolation + intellectual dilemma is a beautiful classic. Ah, how I mourn what Draco could have been. (Thank God for fanfic. TGFF.) Personally, though, I have a bigger kink for complicated group dynamics than for solo angsting, so I'll let you keep Wes while I wander off to play with John Crichton et al. Intellectual dilemmas, though: YISSS. Sympathetic, ethical people with equally urgent, mutually exclusive needs, and how they work it out. Yis.
Here's what I find interesting: as fanfic writers/readers, we're trained to zero in on character. The vast majority of our plots, no matter how neat and agile, are mostly vehicles for illuminating some aspect of character. Original short fiction, otoh, is idea-based. Characters are sketched as efficiently as possible, because they are primarily vehicles for expressing an idea -- a moral, an observation about humanity, a cool shiny sci-fi what-if. This is why I don't consider most fanfiction to be science/speculative fiction, even though the trappings and set pieces are often the same. We really are obsessed with different questions.
I did notice you're a card-carrying Spuffy shipper.
(no subject)
Date: 24/02/2011 09:00 (UTC)Ooh, yes, definitely - though that to me seems less like a recipe for doom, and more like a recipe for a hard-earned, compromised ending of awesome...
Original short fiction, otoh, is idea-based. Characters are sketched as efficiently as possible, because they are primarily vehicles for expressing an idea -- a moral, an observation about humanity, a cool shiny sci-fi what-if.
I'm not sure about this distinction, because I tend to feel that characters should reflect ideas and ideas should reflect characters. It's all very well building a shiny new leisure centre of an idea, but I want to see how it works with actual people (/their closest facsimiles possible) running around inside it, not how it works when it's staffed by robots who won't scuff the flooring. That's probably a personal choice - but I like fanfic with ideas that stretch its characters, and stories where the characters are created/used to really wrestle with ideas.
I did notice you're a card-carrying Spuffy shipper.
Oh, dear, does that mean my secret's out...? Alack!
(no subject)
Date: 23/02/2011 01:56 (UTC)One thing I'll share that's (I think?) related: When I was young, everyone used to (1) think I was a freak because I didn't want to have children (cloning, I would have done, mind you), which lead them to decide that (2) I was either a lesbian or "one of those ones who don't like sex." Often (and almost always from one male boss of mine who was one of those nice guys that has no fucking clue what a dick he was), there was a small shudder of revulsion at my aberrant weirdness; the shudder was usually stronger at the thought that I must have sexual hang-ups that made me frigid than it was at the thought that I slept with women. However, the bright side of aging is that, at least I've found, people stop forcing you to interact within the parameters of their ideas of appropriate sexuality because they stop tagging you as outside the realm of normal based on anything about your sexuality --- gender focus, practices, even having or not having --- as you get older. Of course, that's because they think you had to have stopped having any interest in sex because you turned 40, along with the expectation that drooling and crapping your pants will shortly follow. In other words, they stop being dildos in one way and start being dildos in a whole new and exciting way. Even still, it is a nice change to not keep having to explain or justify anything about your sexuality once that happens ---- not whether you have it, not who you have it with, not anything. (That just leaves them thinking you must be sad and lonely because you don't have screaming grandchildren to babysit.)
Have a drink for me!
(no subject)
Date: 23/02/2011 11:58 (UTC)However, the bright side of aging is that, at least I've found, people stop forcing you to interact within the parameters of their ideas of appropriate sexuality because they stop tagging you as outside the realm of normal based on anything about your sexuality --- gender focus, practices, even having or not having --- as you get older. Of course, that's because they think you had to have stopped having any interest in sex because you turned 40, along with the expectation that drooling and crapping your pants will shortly follow. In other words, they stop being dildos in one way and start being dildos in a whole new and exciting way. Even still, it is a nice change to not keep having to explain or justify anything about your sexuality once that happens ---- not whether you have it, not who you have it with, not anything. (That just leaves them thinking you must be sad and lonely because you don't have screaming grandchildren to babysit.)
That is somewhat reassuring, though I'm sure it will come with its own irritation. By 40 I'll hopefully manage to have convinced my parents and all parental figures that I really do intend to live as an old maid, which will some extent be a relief, even if it comes with pity. (Things might change before then, of course, but if people intending to have three children can plan their future then so can I!)
Cheers!
(no subject)
Date: 23/02/2011 18:01 (UTC)We live in hope.
(no subject)
Date: 24/02/2011 04:07 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 24/02/2011 08:48 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 23/02/2011 02:01 (UTC)Word. At some point, all this TALKING ABOUT SEX makes me think some ladies may be protesting too much. Because if you're not ~liberated~ and talking openly about sex, there must be something wrong with you!
But one day I'll manage to write a sex scene without thinking it must say something about me more than a scene about fighting dragons, and that's what I'm looking forward to.
*nodding like a bobblehead*
I remember when I first started writing fic in fandom, the sex scenes felt mandatory to me, and I included them not because I liked writing them or had something to say about the subject, but because I figured people wouldn't read fic without them. And it was this extremely odd situation for me, because what I was writing bore absolutely no resemblance to my personal experience or feelings about sex, but I still had that feeling that it was saying something about me (possibly something not at all true).
Then again, if I wrote sex scenes that conveyed how I REALLY feel about sex... no one would read it, lol.
(no subject)
Date: 23/02/2011 12:06 (UTC)what I was writing bore absolutely no resemblance to my personal experience or feelings about sex, but I still had that feeling that it was saying something about me (possibly something not at all true).
Yeah! I can't even pin down what my sex scenes would be saying about me, but there's some sense that what happens, and the words you use, and the things people say are all categorising you into some box or another - in a way that isn't true with anything else you might write about.
Then again, if I wrote sex scenes that conveyed how I REALLY feel about sex... no one would read it, lol.
I dunno, I think sex in fic has to be in service of the characters and the story - you can't have everyone reflecting your views on things all the time, otherwise you wouldn't have more than one character to write about - but that doesn't mean that your views can't have relevance at one time or another. My ace characters, for example, are all slightly different from me, because they're informed by different lives, but I use my views to help craft them. Spike and Buffy... Follow a different process. ;)
(no subject)
Date: 23/02/2011 17:32 (UTC)It's kinda funny, because worrying about what your sex scenes say about you is a common thing for fic writers - like, "OMG what if I post my slave/bondage/noncon fic and people think I'm a sadist in real life?" But... do you actually think that about other people? I don't, so it's probably silly to worry, since no one's making those assumptions. :)
But you hardly ever see people worrying about whether their fic reveals something about their mental health, or their parents, or their career, or whatever. I hadn't thought about it much before, but it's very odd.
My ace characters, for example, are all slightly different from me, because they're informed by different lives, but I use my views to help craft them. Spike and Buffy... Follow a different process. ;)
Heh. You know, the idea of writing ace characters NEVER even occurred to me until I followed some link of yours to
(no subject)
Date: 23/02/2011 17:57 (UTC)*nods* There's nothing inherently wrong with being a sadist, of course, but I think I start worrying that people are going to doubt my queerness, or whatever, since I know I'm pulling on my own experiences (in a very distorted way) to write a het sex scene. It's making a judgement of what your characters will find 'sexy' over something else. (And I do tend to notice people's porn-tics, which may or may not say anything about them, but I always worry people are going to notice mine and judge.)
I'm so glad I could link you to
(no subject)
Date: 23/02/2011 19:37 (UTC)Ugh. Are you aromantic as well? (I can't remember, but I feel like I should know.) I actually DO want to settle into a relationship eventually, just probably not a typical one... it almost seems like it'd be easier to declare myself an old maid in the making. :)
It tends to feel slightly political, which is irritating, but it is fun.
Haha, yeah. It feels kind of like making a ~statement~ in a way. Maybe because it's a deliberate characterization decision rather than the passive sexuality-by-default? I dunno. It's really no different from slash in that sense, but it seems different somehow.
Maybe it's because I still have trouble identifying characters. I need other people to explain it to me, lol (which is why ace manifestos are awesome). But now that I've seen ace!Andrew, I can't unsee it, you know? :)
(no subject)
Date: 23/02/2011 22:39 (UTC)Yes - generally quite merrily, though probably less secure in it than the aceness per se. I, heh, feel like I should warn you that people do not tend to see wanting to become an old maid as an acceptable lifestyle choice...
Maybe it's because I still have trouble identifying characters. I need other people to explain it to me, lol
*shrugs* Claire's the only one I came up with on my own, actually - Andrew was an offhand comment from
(no subject)
Date: 23/02/2011 18:00 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 23/02/2011 20:05 (UTC)That makes the sudden secret relationship more interesting, IMO. Since she is an imprint, it's not clear to me whether her relationship with Boyd is something she's programmed to want, or an act of defiance against Topher, or even her original self peeking through.
The nice thing about a 'verse where people's entire personalities can be replaced? It's easy to fanwank sudden changes, lol.
(no subject)
Date: 23/02/2011 22:52 (UTC)I think I ended up deciding, for my own convenience, that the secret relationship was part of the program change when she became a sleeper. :D
(no subject)
Date: 26/02/2011 17:25 (UTC)